Shih-fu: The state of "simple mind, " or having relatively fewer thoughts, is when the person is beginning to work well, and their mind stays with the method almost constantly. If we should have some wandering thoughts, he immediately becomes aware of it and brings his mind back to the method, again and again.

LH: The method, by the way, might be anything from counting one's breath, or watching one's breath, to asking the question "Who am I?" or "Where am I?" But can you tell a change in a person's appearance when they're in a state of "simple mind?"

Shih-fu: Yes, I can tell. At that point the person's body will not be moving around anymore. It will be very still and his breathing will be very even, very calm. Also, when I walk behind the person, or right around the area where that person is sitting, I pick up a feeling from the person that his mind is no longer scattered.

LH: