First mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. Then mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are no longer rivers. In the end, mountains are again mountains and rivers are again rivers. approaches to Dharma, and one can reach a certain level of enlightenment through intellectual reasoning and dialectic, but this will not be Ch'an enlightenment.

If you relentlessly continue with a method based on logical investigation until you have dropped all attachments, including the deductive habit itself, then you will get enlightened, just as you would through Ch'an methods. The enlightenment will be freedom from reasoning and logical investigation.

Two Tibetan lamas once had a debate. In the end, it seemed the elder lama lost, because the younger lama had the last word, and the elder just smiled. Seeing this, the younger lama laughed. Who won? You will never know, because you weren't there. And even if you were there, if you saw it with a mind of attachment, you still would not know who won the debate. Perhaps the young lama did win, but perhaps the elder's silence was the true answer. To know who won you must be enlightened yourself.

STUDENT:

Charles Luk (Lu K'uan Yu) described a person deep in practice as being dull, even stupid. It seemed his regular intellectual ability had been impaired by the practice. From Charles Luk's words it seemed that it is a common occurrence among serious practitioners. Is this true? Is this dull intellectual ability what it is like to be enlightened?

SHIH-FU: