You mention shallow and deep enlightenment. When you mention experiences, are you referring exclusively to experiences of no-self?

SHIH-FU:

Not necessarily. If I am talking about Ch'an enlightenment, then I am talking about experiences of no-self. Often, however, I use the word enlightenment to refer to all kinds of experiences from many spiritual and non-spiritual traditions. People from many different traditions often have the experience of a great totality. These can be considered enlightenment experiences, but they are not experiences of no-self.

A shallow Ch'an experience will last for a short time and a deep experience will last longer. Also, with a deeper experience a person sees emptiness more clearly. His or her sense of emptiness is solid, whereas the shallow experience is not as clear or solid.

The deepest enlightenment is when you are not just seeing emptiness, but rather are in the midst of emptiness. The stages of enlightenment experience may be compared to a person's gradually increasing experience of wine. The first stage is a person who has never seen or tasted wine. In the next stage the person has seen it and knows what it looks like, but has not yet tasted it. Next, the person tastes it and now knows the flavor. Later, if still interested, the person may want another taste, or a whole glass. Last is the stage where the person jumps into the barrel of wine. At this point there is no separation from the wine. To speak of thirst is no longer relevant.

STUDENT: